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    1. Member 16volt's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 04:26 PM #1
      TL;DR - Man wants 80s 911 turbo Porsche. Finds 80s 911 turbo Porsche. 80s 911 turbo Porsche has a story. Man unsure he likes story.

      So I have been looking for a 930 for about 10 months now. I have watched values/sale prices swing dramatically, mostly upward and out of my range. I think I may have found a somewhat local car which is a candidate. First off here is what I am looking for and what I intend to use the car for.

      I want a driver. I cant justify a car that sits in the garage because I dont want to de-value it by putting miles on it or because it is too fragile. That being said, as Seattle gets a little rain the car will likely be out only consistently in the summer.

      I am looking for a later car, 84-89. Im not scared of mileage given the service history is legit. Im not scared of modifications as long as they are done right. I have looked into 964Ts and NA 993s, not much there in my range.

      I understand that these cars require maintenance and I should expect that to be costly, I am ok with that as long I feel comfortable driving the money back out of it. I am not trying to be a baller on a budget here but i dont want to get the car home and have it puke the motor and then sit while I stockpile cash for a rebuild. Im very familiar with high cost of ownership cars but this is admittedly a new league for me. The most common issues I see are:

      Fueling - pumps and pump wiring/warm up regulators. AFR seems to always be an issue with these cars, it is mechanical injection afterall.
      Transmission - 4spds with weak 2nd and 3rd gear synchros
      Body - rust in windshield and back glass corners, rust in fenders, failed body seals
      Electrical - sunroof failures, power window failures, again with general engine fuse box overloads
      Misc - nearly none of the cars have working A/C (i really dont care about this other then for defrost)

      Engine - This is the biggest unknown for me and here is why. I feel like most of the cars I have stalked fall within the 20-50K mile range and most sellers claim that the engine has had a full rebuild. This seems like an excessively short life span to me and I am not sure what component failure is the root cause. I have heard that head studs were an issue on earlier cars but I hear about this mostly on the 2.7 and not the 3.3. ARP or 993 studs seem to be a popular upgrade. Where else do these motors commonly fail and why? Do the low mile cars fail due to lack of use? Is a high mile car that has not had a rebuild a non-starter? I am under the impression that a full rebuild down to splitting the case runs in the $15K range. I have perused some of the videos of rebuilds online and this definitely looks like a situation where you pay the pros and move on.

      This brings me to the car in question. First the bad news:

      Salvage title - The "story" is that it was a theft recovery in 1993 and that the interior and rear deck were stolen. No accident damage.
      Resprayed - Car was stripped to bare metal in 2011 and had a windows out re-shoot by a fairly well known hot rod/Porsche shop. Still the factory color.
      Leaks - Seller says the car leaks about a quart of oil a year.
      Engine - Seller says that engine has had a "major service" at 54K but was not rebuilt. I plan on going through the receipt to see what this encompassed. This above all other things previously listed scares me the most.

      Good news:
      Color combo is cool for me, blk on blk.
      High miles, i like that this car has been driven throughout its life.
      Owner seem at first glance to be a legit guy
      Its local, I just cant convince myself to buy a round trip ticket and go looks at other cars. Its just not where I am at.
      Its a Porsche 930, I would be very happy to see it in the garage every morning parked next to my E24.

      Price wise I think the guy is in the ballpark for sure. Though its not a run and buy it now deal. I have been squirreling cash away for this for awhile but it is still going to be a lifestyle change. I hate debt.

      What scares me:
      I have based the purchase justification on being able to liquidate the car quickly should my lifestyle change. I think the respray and title issue really hurt me here. This car will forever have a story. That being said, I am not a serial car buyer. The intent here is that this car is a long term hold for me.
      The engine re-build or not rebuilt is big question mark.

      My plan is to go look at the car next week, talk to his mechanic, talk to my local Porsche mechanic and see how I feel. The PPI options are limited to someone in his town and there is one shop that I know of. The same shop he routinely brings his cars to. Not sure how honest a job I will get. His mechanic was the one who seems to have recommended against a full tear down and rebuild of the motor.

      Price on the car is in the mid 30s.

      So what say ye Car Lounge? Willtel?
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    2. Member MAPLE SYRUP's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 04:34 PM #2
      Look as a car nut, who buys insane cars with out thought and just acts on want and not need most of the time, I say you live once.. life is short.. the more debating you do in your mind, the worse it gets..

      therefore.. JUST DO IT!! IT'S A 930 TURBO MAN.. LIKE WTF!!
      PSN o0o_BOOST_o0o
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      10-26-2013 04:38 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt View Post
      Leaks - Seller says the car leaks about a quart of oil a year.
      Engine - Seller says that engine has had a "major service" at 54K but was not rebuilt. I plan on going through the receipt to see what this encompassed. This above all other things previously listed scares me the most.
      As for the leak, depending on how much and where it is not all that uncommon. They are oil cooled after all, I know my dad's 930 has a small leak (about the size of a dime) after being run from the oil tank or feed line. We're replacing that this winter.

      The "major service" i'm assuming is a re-seal of the top-end. Not uncommon.

      I'm not sure what the root cause of failure would be these days on the engines other than being pounded boost constantly or sitting for too long, you are right about the head studs.

      To put this into a bit of perspective my dad's car was a 45,000 mile car with an entirely rebuilt engine (with documentation to prove) a handful of years prior. Since that point of purchase I believe there is somewhere near 60,000 miles on the car, high 50s last I remember. The car sees occasional Sunday driving and one weekend per month from April til October it spends two days at the track being driven. It is also driven to and from the track, not uncommon for the car to get 400-500 miles in a weekend of mostly track laps under boost (which is close to 1.0 bar with a larger intercooler and a K27 turbo).

      The only thing that would tell somewhat the kind of condition the car is in would be a compression and leakdown test by a competent air cooled Porsche mechanic. That being said there's no 100% guarantee any 930 won't grenade to be honest, the engines are well designed for it but there's a lot of stress when driven hard.

    4. Member 16volt's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 05:14 PM #4
      The feedback on these 3.3l motors is that they are solid until the mods come on or they sit unused.

      Most of the guys I see do the K27 turbo, inter-cooler and a modified warmup regulator to fatten the AFR. The motor makes big power (400whp or so) but goes bang after running lean. I guess its not shocking, mechanical fuel injection at the limit is not terrific at maintaining the kinds of varying AFRs big boost cars need. But hey, this car attracts a certain person and if I had not blown up my fair share of boosted motors in my youth then I would probably be swapping the wastegate spring in the sellers driveway after signing the paper work. Sometimes wisdom is totally boring.

      And yes, I am not getting any younger and this purchase is the kickoff for what I am hoping will be an awesome mid-life crisis. That being said, I dont want a broken, un-sellable 930 in my garage ruining my crisis. I bought a sailboat to handle those duties.
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      10-26-2013 05:28 PM #5

    6. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 07:00 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt View Post
      What scares me:
      What kinda scares me are the following statements:

      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt
      I have based the purchase justification on being able to liquidate the car quickly should my lifestyle change. I think the respray and title issue really hurt me here. This car will forever have a story. That being said, I am not a serial car buyer. The intent here is that this car is a long term hold for me.
      --
      Price wise I think the guy is in the ballpark for sure. Though its not a run and buy it now deal. I have been squirreling cash away for this for awhile but it is still going to be a lifestyle change. I hate debt.
      --
      Price on the car is in the mid 30s.
      This entire thing is based around being able to get the cash out of it quickly, should your lifestyle change.

      But then you say that it's already going to be a lifestyle change. And you want to pay cash for the car...so $33-36K cash for something that you're uncertain about to begin with, and would need to sell immediately should your lifestyle change again...and you only decided to look into 930s because 964s and 993s were too much.

      Disclaimer--not trying to be TFL and definitely not trying to rain on your parade. And I also don't know **** about working on old Porsches so I won't be mad if you tell me to F-off. BUT if I were your friend IRL I would want to hear that you're buying a 930 because you've always wanted one and you like them the most, not because you can't find a 964 or 993 in your price range. I'd tell you that you should pass on this car and probably this whole idea until your price range changes and you can buy the 911 you really want. JMO.
      Past: '06 Accord V6, '95 Taurus SHO, '01 ITR, '98 Civic HX CVT

      Quote Originally Posted by jamerican1
      Dude, you know you're like the opposite of a purist, right?

    7. 10-26-2013 07:13 PM #7
      To me, a salvage title should de-value a car 50%. This guy is acting like the salvage title is no big deal. I think the price is in lne with a non branded title.

      So, where is the penalty for branded title? The seller wants you to take that responsibility, while avoiding the topic altogether.

      Rule 1- any story about why a car has the rebuilt or salvage title is BS.

    8. Global Moderator Justin's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 07:16 PM #8
      I wish I would have bought one of the 2 that were offered to me 6 years ago. Both were fresh rebuilds for under $20k...Economy tanked people needed cash quickly.

      I am all for the do it and worry about it later.
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    9. 10-26-2013 07:21 PM #9
      I owned an '88 in guards red with low miles my dad still owns it. Watch out for the early eighties cars reference the gearbox and cooling issues.

      Best model years were '85-'89
      Last edited by Jedidub; 10-26-2013 at 07:24 PM.

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      10-26-2013 07:25 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt View Post

      So what say ye Car Lounge? Willtel?
      Too many cons for assured future liquidity. This is not the 930 you're looking for [\Obiwan]

    11. Member mikes96GTI's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 07:26 PM #11
      Great cars and very reliable when properly looked after and sorted. If something major goes like the engine, trans, you are in for some money. Get a thorough inspection of whatever one you want by a Porsche specific shop BEFORE you buy.

      Motor, not uncommon, lack of maintenance, poor treatment, etc. Usually the rod bearings go, head studs break, or its just leaking a ton of oil and as long as its apart.... I will spare you the details, last one I rebuilt the bill with a few tweaks like RUF 3.4 P/C and stage 2 964 cams was into the $20K range but man was that a fast car when I was done.

      There is a lot of complicated **** in the fuel system and finding someone who knows how to properly diagnose it and not just throw parts at it is difficult. Living in Seattle I assume there is a good reputable Porsche independent.

      Salvage title. If it was a theft recovery, I wouldn't be worried. Parts bolt on, parts unbolt, get bolted on again. If it was stolen and wrapped around a tree, thats another story. In 1993 that car was still worth money, so it would take a lot to brand it a complete loss from theft, like it would have to be a shell missing motor, trans, interior and wheels, which 911 theft was very common.

      Trans is beefy, but it is not a quick shifter for drag racing.

      Cars take time to learn to drive and WILL kill you quite quickly if you are disrespectful of it, or not paying attention.

      They will not get cheaper. I passed on an 89 white with maroon guts around 2002 for $15K and it needed head studs.

      Here is a gold 79 I did the motor on about a decade ago. Car was pretty scary and I think those are 345 cross sections.





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    12. Member 16volt's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 09:57 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      What kinda scares me are the following statements:

      This entire thing is based around being able to get the cash out of it quickly, should your lifestyle change.

      But then you say that it's already going to be a lifestyle change. And you want to pay cash for the car...so $33-36K cash for something that you're uncertain about to begin with, and would need to sell immediately should your lifestyle change again...and you only decided to look into 930s because 964s and 993s were too much.

      Disclaimer--not trying to be TFL and definitely not trying to rain on your parade. And I also don't know **** about working on old Porsche's so I won't be mad if you tell me to F-off. BUT if I were your friend IRL I would want to hear that you're buying a 930 because you've always wanted one and you like them the most, not because you can't find a 964 or 993 in your price range. I'd tell you that you should pass on this car and probably this whole idea until your price range changes and you can buy the 911 you really want. JMO.
      I totally appreciate the opinion of TFL. No mistake about it, its a significant amount of money. And Im used to rain on my parade, it is Seattle after all. So I totally get what you are saying here. Perhaps it sounds a bit more dramatic in text then in RL. I am a Project Manager by trade so that's sort of like being a professional pessimist. Being able to get out from under a car is always something that is part of my purchase process.

      I'm not going to have to go from lobster to ramen or anything but going from zero debt to a car payment will require some adjustment for me. If it didn't then we wouldn't need to consider a car with this type of history since, money no object.

      To clarify the 930 was always the car for me. I like the option of the 964T, love the updates and dont mind the aesthetic differences. There are however allot less out there. The 993 is the top of the hill for me but it would have to be a twin turbo or C2S and now you are at nearly double the cost. I still consider just waiting for a 993 but then my heart and the old car lounge mentality kicks in and I want the old school experience.

      I want to buy a 930 because this is a car that I am passionate about. Its history, its looks, its technical prowess are all what appeals to me.
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    13. Member TheDeckMan's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 10:37 PM #13
      http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-9...harging-forum/

      and

      http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ce-discussion/

      Lots of info. I have been shopping for a long time, the more you know the better off you will be in the long term ownership.
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    14. Member 16volt's Avatar
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      10-26-2013 10:42 PM #14
      Thanks I have similar thread going on in the turbo forum on Pelican. I didnt know about the marketplace discussion section though, appreciate that.

      And I can appreciate what it feels like to be shopping for this for a long time. At a certain point you just get "itchy". I just have to remember that there is an ass for every seat and that it doesnt always have to be mine.

      I was a day late on this car. Im still kicking myself.

      http://www.cvluxurycars.com/1986Pors...BlackonRed.htm



      Last edited by 16volt; 10-26-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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      10-26-2013 11:00 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt View Post
      What scares me:
      I have based the purchase justification on being able to liquidate the car quickly should my lifestyle change. I think the respray and title issue really hurt me here. This car will forever have a story. That being said, I am not a serial car buyer. The intent here is that this car is a long term hold for me.
      The engine re-build or not rebuilt is big question mark.
      Your justification sounds logical, but ultimately a Porsche is a choice of the heart. What I learned during my purchase and subsequent ownership, is there can be no rationalization for why owning the car makes sense. I'm resigned to the fact that a $10K top-end rebuild could be in my future, and like you, mine is not a garage queen. Over the two years of ownership, I have sorted a few problems on my own, spent some time with other Porsche guys, and have uncovered various flaws that I didn't spot before the purchase.

      The Porsche world is full of 50K mile cream puff cars, whose windshield wipers have never been used. But if you are driving the car and loving it, developing a relationship with it and making memories, then you won't care about the title status and re-spray. Also, important to remember that a 930 is no ordinary Porsche....it will always hold a special place as the 'ultimate' aircooled' 911. I would bet that in 10 years no will care about a title issue, especially if you begin documenting everything you can, or get some kind of certification of the body's integrity.
      Last edited by RabbitsKin; 10-26-2013 at 11:04 PM.

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      10-27-2013 01:52 AM #16
      I would suggest that you keep looking. Salvage title just inherently makes it hard to sell - you trim the available purchasers down by at least half, if not more. It is OK if you are going to keep it forever. But even then, I think the price needs to be closer to $30K flat.

      Secondly, a repaint is a big red flag. Any 85-89 930 car with less than has 100K miles shouldn't need a repaint, and later buyers will assume the worst about the body underneath if it has been painted. My Red 1986 930 (in picture) has 85K miles and the original paint is flawless - Porsche has great paint that lasts (in most climates). A 55K car with a rebuild or a repaint is, in my mind, more likely a 155K mile car.

      These cars are going up in value now, as are the 993TT cars. But as others here have said, it pays to be patient and wait for the right car. I think both will go up in value, and will be easy to sell, over the next 2-10 years.
      Last edited by Dave_Car_Guy; 10-27-2013 at 02:01 AM.

    17. 10-27-2013 12:25 PM #17
      Being that it's a black car, if it was neglected at some point, I can see an owner wishing to respray it. Nothing comes up like German single stage red paint however.

      There are a lot of title branded 80s 911's, and it is because 80s 911s are exceptionally easy to steal. A sharp flat blade screwdriver is literally all you need. The turbos were especially hot in that respect. The car could have had its center caps and shift knob missing when it was stolen, but if it was recovered a day after the owner received his check for his missing car, it's considered salvage.

      I feel the car you're looking at is worth a good ppi, and a bit of investigative work, as there are a few answers that you can get and help in your decision on the car.

    18. Member juicemoney's Avatar
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      10-27-2013 02:08 PM #18
      I agree with the other posters here, the salvage title and respray are sketchy. IMO mileage and rebuild wouldn't scare me off either.

      I would wait for something else and be willing to travel for a good specimen. I have noticed a lot of good cars are far away from where you think they would be. I agree 930 prices are all over the place but you should stick to enthusiast oriented sites like Rennlist or Pelican Parts classifieds. These forums tend to have owners who are more involved in caring for a vehicle.

      And definitely invest in a good PPI from an independent shop!
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    19. Member 16volt's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 12:46 PM #19
      Thank you TCL and Ross's chime in from the TFL. I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice.



      First the bad news. There is no 930 in my garage.

      Before I went and looked at the car Tuesday I called the mechanic who cares for it and he was very helpful. He gave me some history as to how the seller came about buying the car (bought a 3.2l Carrera then the 930, thinking it would just be a faster Carrera, not so much). He also spoke to the owners disposition, just fix it right now, no deferring maintenance and his collection of other P-cars (a few GT3s and GT3RSs that were bought for exclusive track duty). The only red flag was that the mechanic was of the opinion that the car was due for a top end rebuild. But this was solely based off the mileage and not leakdown/comp numbers or other immediately evident problems. The mechanic offered a full PPI for $650.00.

      I then called a few other local shops about when and why 3.3l should have a top end rebuild. All the responses I got came back as the only way to truly know is to have the leakdown/comp done. Fair enough.

      I also called another specialty dealer/broker (who sold the blk on red car I listed above). He gave me some good info on price and what is driving the 930 market which turns out to be German and Swiss buyers. He related that nearly all the 930s he buys go overseas sight unseen. His valuation on the car was pretty low but he is buying the 8-9 grade cars so it made sense.

      After the info on the possible top end rebuild (to the tune of $8-9K) I was pretty turned off on the car. As I and others above mentioned, the paint would tell the tale and I figured it would end up being a walk away.

      Well, I showed up at 2:30pm with the worst sun of the day on the car....and the paint was very good. The seller obviously got every penny worth of the $7700.00 respray. There were a couple issues, some spots that needed wet sanded (missed by the body shop), a scuff, a strange wrinkle in the door and one very small bead on a fender where there was too much paint. Other than the door wrinkle (why they didnt replace the skin or use a little skim filler I dont know) I roughed it out in my head to be about $1000 to correct the issues. As resprays go, it was very good.

      The seller provided a conf room in his building and me and a friend poured over the documentation. Very complete, started in 1991. Car sold at the police auction after the theft in 1993 for $23K to a friend of the original owner. The hood, tail, wheels and seats were all missing. The second owner fixed those items and had the car the bulk of the history. There were not allot of red flags. The car spent allot of time getting Jiffy Lube oil changes in the early 2000s lol. There was a rough running issue that went on a long time, about 4 new distributors and caps! The root cause was finally found once the car made it to the PNW and the rear fuel pump/WUR etc were all replaced.

      This is getting to be TL;DR again so I will get on with it.

      Drove the car, loved it. No issues. Its worth noting that it didnt feel sluggish to me off boost but I dont have any seat time in a normal 3.2l car to compare. On boost its as the press describe it....its an animal. It squats and catapults forward at an alarming rate. If your man enough to grab 3rd and keep it on the floor this thing really cooks. Amazing for something this old.

      I left feeling very conflicted. The seller was firm at 35K and honestly I didnt think that he was asking too much. Full price surely but not crazy or overpriced.

      That night I decided that since I would have to fix the issues immediately that the purchase price was effectively in the 40s for me. As I mentioned, I cant stand to let a car sit with issues. I slept on it and decided to call the seller with my best offer, he called me first. We had a nice chat and he said that a buyer in Switzerland had wired him a non-refundable deposit of 10K that morning into his paypal account, without so much as sending him an email. He didnt want the hassle of shipping the car, i gave my best offer and explained why and the seller totally understood. We ended up being 4-5K apart.

      The seller was great and I told him to take the offer if it proved legit. I think we both parted ways disappointed. I keep almost calling him back and doing the deal but I know that I would probably end up over extended and ultimately thats not good.

      So its on to the next, likely for more money and less stories but right now Im just super disappointed....

      I have a line on a 86, red on black that's highly modded. Its a full 3.4L twin spark motor, big turbo on Motec spark and fuel. Low boost tuned at 435rwhp by a reputable tuner. 123K on the chassis, paint work done on one fender and both quarters. Visually its not apparent but the work was found with a paint meter.

      What is TCL thoughts on a modded motor car?
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    20. Member geofftii2002's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 12:51 PM #20
      I have a silver/black one that has 50K miles and is very reasonably priced!!!

      Driver condition cosmetics, mechanically unmodified (except for decatted) and in very very good nick mechanically. It was just inspected by a very well respected Porsche specialist and found to be in great health. The owner just spent about 3K getting oil lines and a couple of leaks sorted and the tires have about 200 miles on them. It has been modified early in its life with boxed rockers, 930S quarter vents and a 934 front spoiler. It's a great looking car all around. PM me, I'm eager to get this car sold and could be had for around $40K or possibly under (with 50K miles!!).
      Last edited by geofftii2002; 11-01-2013 at 12:56 PM.
      New Fun Old Car Stuff Happening Soon.

    21. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 12:52 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by 16volt View Post
      Thank you TCL and Ross's chime in from the TFL. I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice.
      I'm flattered

      How much is the crazy modded one?
      Past: '06 Accord V6, '95 Taurus SHO, '01 ITR, '98 Civic HX CVT

      Quote Originally Posted by jamerican1
      Dude, you know you're like the opposite of a purist, right?

    22. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 01:03 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by geofftii2002 View Post
      I have a silver/black one that has 50K miles and is very reasonably priced!!!

      Driver condition cosmetics, mechanically unmodified (except for decatted) and in very very good nick mechanically. It was just inspected by a very well respected Porsche specialist and found to be in great health. The owner just spent about 3K getting oil lines and a couple of leaks sorted and the tires have about 200 miles on them. It has been modified early in its life with boxed rockers, 930S quarter vents and a 934 front spoiler. It's a great looking car all around. PM me, I'm eager to get this car sold and could be had for around $40K or possibly under (with 50K miles!!).
      Can you post pics? I just want to see it, i'm not interested or anything.

    23. Banned butterface's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 01:28 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Can you post pics? I just want to see it, i'm not interested or anything.
      Click the link in his siggy dufus.

    24. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      1972 Condor II Autocross Spec with Dan in the passenger seat
      11-01-2013 01:45 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by butterface View Post
      Click the link in his siggy dufus.
      Hurr durr.

      Thanks, wasn't thinking.

    25. Member cretinx's Avatar
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      11-01-2013 01:54 PM #25
      The only thing you're going to do with more horsepower is go faster.
      - Cars that I Own -

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