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    1. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 12:51 PM #701
      'power' is a guess, it's a pretty good guess, but it's a guess. the sampling rate is usually 1x per second. if you're churning out say 85rpm this of course puts the meter in a different spot for each measure which can cause differences in the strain gauge, provided it's crank or pedal based. even if it's a powertap wheel there is still sampling variance. so for that reason most people who train would use something like the 10s or 30s reading to smooth out the irregularities. instant power jumps all over the place and is useless.

      so for that since you are looking at an average over time you only need to peridocially look. you will also start to gauge the power very easily. as it is i can pretty accurately predict the feeling of anything under about 500w.

      NP lap is super helpful on climbs to make sure you're not going to burn yourself out.

      sprintervals it's useless, just turn the crank.

      biggest benefit honestly is long efforts and tracking your TSS and TSB
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    2. Member Samson's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 01:03 PM #702
      There's a recent CyclingTips podcast about power meters, and it brings up several issues. It might be worth a listen before dropping that kind of cash. These issues may or may not matter, depending on brand and usage.

      In short: Just like a GPS, it seems that power meters vary wildly among brands and conditions (temperature, installation, etc.). "+/- 2% accuracy" can mean different things, and even then it may only be accurate for a small portion of a 360 degree rotation. None of that may matter to you, but I found it interesting. I believe one test showed two meters on the same bike at the same time having a 50% or 100% difference (I forget) for a portion of the ride, though the end average measurement was close enough.

      Personally, like a GPS, I'm more interested in consistency than accuracy. Having a repeatable, reliable base number seems like it's more helpful from a training perspective, unless there's some mental milestone you're trying to conquer. Then again, I'm not a coach nor have I ever used a power meter.

      Personally, I don't have any real interest in a power meter, regardless of where I ride or where I've lived. I get how they're useful, but that all depends on your end goals. If you want to build fitness, they seem like they can be a beneficial tool. Or if you're just a huge data nerd and have some cash to spend, why not? On the other hand, a GPS with a HRM field and several hundred bucks worth of upgrades and beer sounds more fun to me. My Edge 705 has a heart rate monitor, but I've never used it.

      I'm sure people who have actually used a meter will have better insight.

    3. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 01:09 PM #703
      No you're right on. They dont measure very well but so long as they measure inaccurately in the same fashion and repeatedly then it's usable. The longer the effort the better the measure, and on hills and such they really get to be spot on.

      I think the biggest thing though is TSB.

      I have my meter still because, well, I could probably only sell it for marginally more than a regular replacement crank arm would be so why bother? I look at the numbers every now and then but that's more so because I have been turning a lot more power when I zone out than I really want to. If I just sit and cruise I'm going to be at about 240, but all day every day I will start to wear down and my goal is to just keep some base fitness, so 190-210 is ideal. In that I use the meter to keep me in check.

      But I cancelled my Training Peaks account a long long time back and would never pay for Strava's calcs. I did see that Garmin has NP with a partnership with TP so that's fine to look at. But I don't do anything but take note after a ride, still no TSB or anything.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    4. 04-20-2017 01:19 PM #704
      I've no interest in using this for training for bike racing in a group of others. I really don't have the cash to constantly wreck equipment or hurt myself.

      On the other hand, building fitness for more personal goals is my thing. Build up to a Mt. Mitchell trip. Build up to doing a 1/2 Ironman someday (that's individual, no drafting or pack racing). Finding a runner for a team 1/2 Ironman would be the first real test of any kind. Essentially a 56 mile ITT.

      I can always jump on the trainer at work and do some 1 hr or less sessions with power if I want. This has helped a lot, not just with fitness but really knowing what I'm doing and for how long I could do it if necessary.

      For now, sounds like HRM and cadence sensor and dedicated bike computer.

    5. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 01:28 PM #705
      HRM is going to get you 90% of the way there. Cadence, eh, not necessary, I dont even have mine hooked up I dont think. Or maybe I do, not sure.

      Honestly heart rate zone training is going to get you as much usable fitness as power meter training. The whole PM thing is for people looking for the rest of the 10%, but it requires a level of dedication that starts to lead down a rabbit hole, forever chasing that extra watt.

      And here's the secret, for all that work focusing with a PM you get a few rides a year to actually use it. Stop training and you very quickly revert, it's rented. And the prescription of rides you need to do gets beyond tedious into boring zone. And then the rides aren't enough, then you need to do off the bike work too to find those missing 3 watts. And then you realize you can't plan this out on your own so you hire a coach. A coach! To work you out... on a bike... as a grown adult! Crazy!



      If you're not gearing up for something specific like a real attempt at Kona just take the 90% of your true potential and be happy, it's sustainable and you can ride however you want whenever you want. The 100% maxed out results aren't sustainable. No doubt you can get stronger with a PM but not if you won't be dedicated.

      They're great for hill pacing though.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    6. Member Samson's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 01:47 PM #706
      Yeah, I'd buy a connected GPS with a HRM and neat things like weather and live tracking. The Edge 520 or 820 look to be nice options that don't cost too much.

      It's a shame that there aren't any with a radar overlay on a given riding route, but I guess that's what smartphone mounts are for. It would great around here in the spring though.

    7. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 01:54 PM #707
      Yeah you have a $600+/- phone in your pocket, no need to replicate it's functions on a bike computer.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    8. 04-20-2017 02:04 PM #708
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Yeah you have a $600+/- phone in your pocket, no need to replicate it's functions on a bike computer.
      I do this right now. I just run Strava free on a phone mount attached to the stem. Can you pair a device with the free one? I thought you had to cough up $60 a year to pair something like a HRM to your Strava app.

    9. Member Samson's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 02:04 PM #709
      On a road bike that only sees dry pavement, a smartphone + HRM is fine. On an MTB or gravel though, no thanks. My GPS has taken its fair share of hits, most of which no smartphone would survive. The other thing to consider is weatherproofing. Smartphones really don't fit in that category, especially if you want a functional capacitive touch screen (they don't work when even a tiny bit wet). So, for an all-rounder, I'd probably still get a dedicated GPS. If you're on a really long ride, it'll also save the phone battery.

    10. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 02:05 PM #710
      No what I mean is if weather is iffy take it out of your pocket occasionally and check weather app radar
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    11. 04-20-2017 02:10 PM #711
      Sensible post jnm2.0. The 90% rule makes sense. I've never understood the amount of time people spend on just grinding to get to 100%. I've got friends who ride all winter long in freezing weather to keep up the base miles so they don't have to return the rental. Seems like developing bike handling skills is much less ephemeral once it's committed to muscle memory..

    12. Member Samson's Avatar
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      Ghetto35
      04-20-2017 02:10 PM #712
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      No what I mean is if weather is iffy take it out of your pocket occasionally and check weather app radar
      Ah. Gotcha. That's what I do now, but I would spend a few hundred bucks to have my GPS just show me.

    13. 04-20-2017 02:19 PM #713
      Quote Originally Posted by vwconvert View Post
      Sensible post jnm2.0. The 90% rule makes sense. I've never understood the amount of time people spend on just grinding to get to 100%. I've got friends who ride all winter long in freezing weather to keep up the base miles so they don't have to return the rental. Seems like developing bike handling skills is much less ephemeral once it's committed to muscle memory..
      To his point also, I'm not the kind of person who should be concerned about the last 10%. My power output and skill level might be a lot higher than your typical greenway path dweller, but I'm definitely not some categorized racer.

      B-day is coming up in a month, a HRM will be on the list.

    14. 04-20-2017 02:24 PM #714
      I've got a heart rate monitor and it's great. I use it on and off the bike to prevent overtraining and under training. Love it.

    15. 04-20-2017 02:54 PM #715
      Anyone use one they like that isn't an around-the-chest style? I'm not fond of things like that around me there. A wrist, ankle, arm, or whatever is fine.

    16. 04-20-2017 03:01 PM #716
      I know what you mean. I hate the chest strap on my Polar but after doing a bunch of research on strapless HRM, I came to the conclusion that most are just not very accurate. The variation can be 20 bpm. So I decided to stick with the strap until technology improves. Mind you this was a year ago so maybe technology has caught up

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      04-20-2017 04:01 PM #717
      To chime in on the power meter discussion--I have one. It was awesome when I was racing and doing intervals, especially longer ones. Its pretty worthless now that I'm really just riding for fun/to keep from getting obese.

      I'd sell it, but I keep having delusions that I would one day race again, and I'd have to buy another back wheel to replace it, which would net me MAYBE $100. Knowing how slow I am is worth $100, if for no other reason than motivation.

      See? I averaged 147 watts on Sunday!

      https://www.strava.com/activities/950081265

    18. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 04:09 PM #718
      I actually liked both my polar and Garmin chest straps. Haven't used them in a long time, maybe I should.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    19. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-20-2017 11:54 PM #719
      One last PM thought for now. It's certainly possible to use one without going crazy and still get a lot stronger but I think you need to take the moose route. He's done great by his without anything crazy for a training plan but he goes on big climbs constantly. Doing that and going a bit stronger every few weeks can in and of itself work well, but you gotta love hills.

      Also know it's possible to train one specific area. You can do sprintervals and be a good critical racer but fall on your face on a hill. Or you can always train long steady efforts of 3-4 hours and have no top end. I saw some ****ing beast on a TT bike today, guy looked like he was a linebacker. I bet he can plow through the flats on his bike but hit a hill and he'd wilt. We all have our areas were going to be naturally more built for.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

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      04-21-2017 11:47 AM #720
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      One last PM thought for now. It's certainly possible to use one without going crazy and still get a lot stronger but I think you need to take the moose route. He's done great by his without anything crazy for a training plan but he goes on big climbs constantly. Doing that and going a bit stronger every few weeks can in and of itself work well, but you gotta love hills.

      Also know it's possible to train one specific area. You can do sprintervals and be a good critical racer but fall on your face on a hill. Or you can always train long steady efforts of 3-4 hours and have no top end. I saw some ****ing beast on a TT bike today, guy looked like he was a linebacker. I bet he can plow through the flats on his bike but hit a hill and he'd wilt. We all have our areas were going to be naturally more built for.
      Thanks John. I find having a PM super useful and have seen solid gains over the last 18 months or so. I follow a training plan, but it's not super crazy. I find it really helpful to watch my weekly/monthly TSS. But this is a hobby for me: I have limited amount of time to train: 7-8 hours a week is the max. So there's always a plateau as the TSS can only get so high. I don't beat myself up if I miss a workout or don't quite hit my numbers. Keep in mind I don't race, but do train for some aggressive, timed rides (not technically races).

      For me, being able to have my training zones is super helpful. Being able to target the intervals obviously helps quite a bit and being able to see the fitness/fatigue numbers. It's been said, but I love using the PM to gauge efforts. Knowing I can hold X watts for a 30 minute climb keeps things nice and consistent and not blow up. I enjoy having the PM, but don't go nuts into the data. I just like training for the sake of getting faster. I also got a fairly cheap PM (stages) when their prices dropped.

    21. Geriatric Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      04-21-2017 10:16 PM #721
      Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
      There's a recent CyclingTips podcast about power meters, and it brings up several issues. It might be worth a listen before dropping that kind of cash. These issues may or may not matter, depending on brand and usage.

      In short: Just like a GPS, it seems that power meters vary wildly among brands and conditions (temperature, installation, etc.). "+/- 2% accuracy" can mean different things, and even then it may only be accurate for a small portion of a 360 degree rotation. None of that may matter to you, but I found it interesting. I believe one test showed two meters on the same bike at the same time having a 50% or 100% difference (I forget) for a portion of the ride, though the end average measurement was close enough.

      Personally, like a GPS, I'm more interested in consistency than accuracy. Having a repeatable, reliable base number seems like it's more helpful from a training perspective, unless there's some mental milestone you're trying to conquer. Then again, I'm not a coach nor have I ever used a power meter.

      Personally, I don't have any real interest in a power meter, regardless of where I ride or where I've lived. I get how they're useful, but that all depends on your end goals. If you want to build fitness, they seem like they can be a beneficial tool. Or if you're just a huge data nerd and have some cash to spend, why not? On the other hand, a GPS with a HRM field and several hundred bucks worth of upgrades and beer sounds more fun to me. My Edge 705 has a heart rate monitor, but I've never used it.

      I'm sure people who have actually used a meter will have better insight.


      Depends. I've been using a PM over 3 years now and I find it extremely useful as it allows me to hit particular numbers when I do intervals and removes the guess work. I have it on both of my bikes.

      However and this is what I keep telling to all people who consider buying one. You have be very committed and disciplined when it comes to your training and having a program (self-made or assisted by a coach) is a MUST.

      If you are not prepared to spend time training over a long period of time, do power tests, etc. you will be wasting your hard-earned cash.

      🍵 🚴 🍲 💤
      "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us are. Very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad."

    22. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-23-2017 02:55 PM #722
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      Depends. I've been using a PM over 3 years now and I find it extremely useful as it allows me to hit particular numbers when I do intervals and removes the guess work. I have it on both of my bikes.

      However and this is what I keep telling to all people who consider buying one. You have be very committed and disciplined when it comes to your training and having a program (self-made or assisted by a coach) is a MUST.

      If you are not prepared to spend time training over a long period of time, do power tests, etc. you will be wasting your hard-earned cash.

      Certainly not universally true and you know it. Yes if you're obsessive to the point of laying out specific workouts and plans or you're hiring a coach sure, you will have a meter, but that doesn't mean you have to do that to make good use of a meter. Even if all you do is track TSB you're going to be well off in the end, and it's great for pacing climbs. Get out of here with that nonsense that you have to be very committed and disciplined to use one, so holier than thou.

      the powah meter demand curve. it never hits NO, but the seasoned user who is not a crazy obsessive person can probably get by without one once theyve learned how power 'feels' and just ride by feel, but it's still not even no usage. The noob would be good to have one to help understand and not build bad habits or overdo it, burn out, and hate the bike.


      Last edited by WineBasket2.0t; 04-23-2017 at 03:16 PM.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    23. 04-23-2017 07:04 PM #723
      I got some brake rub on the front wheel after I washed out hard on a fast corner. I almost went down and the forks dived quite a bit. I"m wondering if anyone has experienced brake rub after something like this and what the solution might be. Thanks.

    24. Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Lighten up Francis
      04-23-2017 07:21 PM #724
      Brakes are finicky. You can check the brake for true. If it is the pads maybe just got funked up. Riding it a few miles should correct it our you can remove them and reset the calipers.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit5GTI
      You have cornered the entire 'I hate Ford Fusions' market around here
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      Pure electric vehicles will never fully replace fueled (pure ICE or PHEV) vehicles.

    25. Member Samson's Avatar
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      Ghetto35
      04-24-2017 08:59 AM #725
      Yeah, check the rotor by spinning the wheel and seeing how true it is between the pads. If it's out, you can grab it with a clean rag/finger and give it a little pull to try and straighten it. The wheel could have also been knocked slightly out of whack in the dropouts, especially if the skewer tension is on the lighter side. The front wheel on my Top Fuel wasn't tight enough with the factory skewer setting and it'd rub a decent amount. I bumped up the tension a bit (via the numbered wheel on the non-brake side), and it's been fine since.

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