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    1. Geriatric Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 05:29 PM #26
      At this point, is it worth upgrading to disc brakes, even if it's just at the front ?
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    2. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 05:30 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by valfaw View Post
      Great to see you back in the saddle with a new project so soon after all you and your wife went through. Very much looking forward to seeing this car come back to its glory days...
      I'm still kinda limited to what I can do, so I'm just documenting this one and facilitating the rehabilitation.

    3. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 05:51 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      At this point, is it worth upgrading to disc brakes, even if it's just at the front ?
      There's no reason to do it. The front brake drums are 2.5" deep and 12" in diameter. The rears are 2" wide with 12" drums. That's how they did brake balancing with a single circuit. You could stop a Mack truck with those when they're working properly. Thats a lot of surface area. Unless you've come off a race course and already have a brake problem, there's really no need. Coming out of Laguna Seca and down the 16% grade I nearly crashed into that RR, but the rear brakes alone kept that from happening, so there's sufficient capacity for normal use.

      http://vid61.photobucket.com/albums/...ps69d339ab.mp4

      Here's what happens. People take their very used-up, out of adjustment, drum brakes and replace them with disc brakes and think they're a world different when in reality had they tested new drum to new disc there's very little difference. Plus, I haven't seen a single conversion that gets the balancing valve right. The cars either stand on their nose or are just poor performers. Disc brakes designed into a braking system are great, but this beast does just fine with drum brakes.

      Some things are better left unimproved. Driving within the limitation of the original brakes is the right thing for any old car.
      Last edited by barry2952; 11-12-2015 at 06:10 PM.

    4. Geriatric Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 05:59 PM #29
      Great explanation and makes perfect sense. Thanks Barry!
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    5. Member
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      11-12-2015 06:19 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I live at 9 & Drake. My buildings are on Beech between Grand River and 7. Visitors are allowed.
      Barry, are you at xxxxxx? And can I really stop by to see your automotive artwork some day?
      Last edited by StressStrain; 11-12-2015 at 06:31 PM. Reason: redacted location

    6. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 06:23 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by StressStrain View Post
      Barry, are you at ? And can I really stop by to see your automotive artwork some day?
      Pretty good sleuth. Sure, I'm a big show-off. The storage building looks like a Lincoln showroom right now. I have a nearly flawless '72 Mark IV that will be sleeping there this winter.
      Last edited by barry2952; 11-12-2015 at 06:28 PM.

    7. Member whiteboy1's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 07:38 PM #32
      love it, thanks for a new project Barry!


      I think it's funny/interesting that a "numbers matching Continental" can mean very different values between it being a Mark II or a 60's model.
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    8. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      11-12-2015 08:39 PM #33
      Like....


      Also... Dave....
      Last edited by atomicalex; 11-12-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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      11-13-2015 09:26 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Like...
      Yeah, when are we getting a 'like' button??

      I don't hang out on Twitface much at all, but I do here. They don't talk about cars nearly enough there.
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    10. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-13-2015 09:40 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by whiteboy1 View Post
      love it, thanks for a new project Barry!


      I think it's funny/interesting that a "numbers matching Continental" can mean very different values between it being a Mark II or a 60's model.
      There's only one number on the Continental other than the serial number stamped on the body and frame, and that's the engine number. On my tiny Continental the body, body panels, engine and trans have the factory serial numbers on the Kardex. The engine number is nowhere to be found on the Production Order of the Mark II. It belongs with the car if the number on the block is close to the last digits of the serial number. Our Porsche is a matching numbers car, except the hood. Not an uncommon panel replacement,



      There were about a dozen pre-production mules and prototypes that got the first batch of engines, but they had serial numbers below 1001, a typical start for Ford products. For example, my car's serial number ends in 1126, but the Production Order is number 137.


    11. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-13-2015 09:51 AM #36
      Time to set the record straight. No matter what anyone says the Continental Mark II is not a Lincoln. It's not pedantic when you see the picture below. Continental was a separate Division of Ford, just like Ford, Lincoln and Mercury. They all had separate management, designers, engineers, plants and assembly workers. Not a Lincoln.



      It's easy to see why the public is confused as it's common to use the term "Lincoln Star" when, in fact, it's the Continental Star, designed specifically for the Mark II. Until the Continental Division was folded into Lincoln, Lincoln had always used an 8-point star. I wrote this years ago after interviewing the designer that came up with the design only hours before the Mark II was presented to the BOD of Ford for the first time. Let's give credit where credit is due.




    12. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-13-2015 05:41 PM #37
      My friend Jim has resigned himself to the fact that he's gonna spend some dough. I asked if I had to bother him with the decisions about the car and he said as long as I don't go the Ruxton route and do a full-bore restoration he's happy with my degree of fussiness and dave's skill and speed.

      He doesn't know this yet, but I've made an executive decision to pull the engine and trans. The trans is leaking out the rear seal and the selector shaft is pouring fluid. Both, theoretically, can be serviced in the car, but the trans sits on top of the frame, severely limiting access. Years of accumulated grah-doo has made the environment non-conducive to the cleanliness needed for transmission work.



      With the engine out of the way the engine bay work will go twice as fast as Dave will be able to stand on the floor in the engine bay area and lower the car to a comfortable work height so he can work 360°. This eliminates the need for repeated, time-consuming masking of everything. The back-breaking work goes away and makes everything more efficient. So much so that the two hours of pulling the engine will probably save 10 hours of work.

      Another several hours of work will be saved by assembling all of the ancillaries to the engine before installation. Paint will be more consistent, reaching areas that never could have been properly cleaned and painted with the engine and trans in place. We figure pulling the combo will save 15 hours and speed this project along. While we can get to the firewall to recondition it, it would be nice to be standing in front of the work rather than leaning over a fender.

      The next step is to remove the engine compartment/headlight/horn wiring harness to inspect the wires themselves as the rubber coating on the wire breaks down over time, especially from heat. The harness runs right under the battery tray and has obvious battery acid damage. The wires are cloth coated. The acid has its way with that. I'll help with this task. The harness was originally taped so we'll remove 6-12" at a time, inspect the wires and wrap it back up after repairs or replacement. Better check now than be burned later.



      Back in 2002 I bought my Mark II. It had 2800 miles on a restoration finished in 1994 If you treated it gently it would accelerate and shift harshly. Every once in a while the whole car would shake and there would be a loud bang. I was told the trans needed to be rebuilt. I was busy with my business so I had it done and it still did the same damn thing. I looked at the parts that came out of the trans and they looked like they had 2800 miles on them. It turned out to be a bad pressure regulator which was accessible though the trans pan, the only exposed part of the trans. The engine didn't have to come out.

      This is what a restored engine bay should look like. This is what we're shooting for on Jim's car. The ability to get right in there and scrub and clean and paint everything properly will make this into a nice car.

      Here's some shots of my engine removal.








    13. Member Bibs's Avatar
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      11-13-2015 08:56 PM #38
      Do we have TCL awards? Barry for MVP.

    14. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      11-13-2015 10:33 PM #39
      Loved the Continental star story.
      Lots of VW stuff|Rare Scirocco parts!
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      11-14-2015 08:55 AM #40
      Wow, never knew there was a Continental division of Ford.

    16. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-14-2015 09:47 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by StressStrain View Post
      Wow, never knew there was a Continental division of Ford.
      You're not alone. It's the popular misperception.

      The division was created in 1953. The project was announced at the first meeting of the Lincoln and Continetal Owners Club at the Dearborn Inn. 28 year old William Clay Ford gave the presentation himself.

      The car was originally going to be fitted with a V-12 like the previous Continental (incorrectly called the Mark I) but the economies of scale made them use Lincoln drive trains. The last Lincoln V-12 was only 135hp while the '57 368 Y-block made 300hp.

    17. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-14-2015 02:10 PM #42
      Dave made great progress. He and I operate in two different time zones. I see him for a couple of hours, establish what I'd like to see done, come in the next morning and it's all done, and then some.

      Last night he dropped the front suspension.



      That let him scrub the frame. It just needs paint. All Mark IIs with radials leave that mark on the frame. The aspect ratio of radials makes the tire much wider for the same load-carrying capacity. Radials pose another problem that they can rub on the upper ball joint. The wheels have to be replaced to use a tire with a proper load rating. A Cadillac wheel, with a half-inch less back-set solves this problem without using spacers. I had custom wheels made with a 3/4" shallower back-set before I knew of the stock Caddy steel wheels.:banged: It does give it a nice stance, though.




      The lower control arm fittings are in exactly the condition I suspected. They were not damping the system at all. The previous owner installed shocks with helper springs and insisted that it only drove nicely with 45 pounds of air in the tires. Boy, is Jim going to be surprised once it rides nice again.



      Apparently the change in color in the engine compartment was brush-applied while everything was in place. We can't have that.



      This is not a stock Mark II color. It's very close to the color the Derham-made Mark II convertible, a Robin's Egg Blue. Durham made a single convertible in late 1956 in the hopes of reviving a program that had already been cancelled. October 17, 1957 the Derham convertible made its debut at the Texas State Fair. It was a beautiful shimmering pearl white with a red interior. It, like all Mark II convertibles came down the line as a coupe. There were no factory-made cars. Ford used Hess & Eisenhardt for the prototype Mark II work. They built two convertibles in late '55.

      The Derham car made the rounds of the show car circuit and was returned to Ford's "Pool", an organization within Ford that disposes of used and custom cars. Well, they used to. I think Ford keeps or crushes the show cars now. The car was tired from being shown so Ford Styling set about refurbishing the car for resale. They bought 5 gallons of Robin's Egg Blue and redid the interior to match the color change. I'm told the car was given to William Clay Ford, but he didn't like the color. He had left day work at Ford, but remained on the board. He ran the Detroit Lions and was heavily involved with The Henry Ford and Greenfield Village as both a benefactor and director.

      WCF had the car repainted his favorite color, Honolulu Blue, his team color. He gave the car to his wife and they used it as a beater and grocery getter on their estate along the Detroit River. The young Ford boys beat the car pretty badly and it often got left open. After a couple of years it returned to the Pool where a young executive, Paul Wagner, had his eye on the car. The last I heard he was still around. The cars were sold on a first-come-first serve basis and he was first, much to the chagrin of some of his superiors. He was threatened and cajoled, but held his ground and bought the car. The picture below is faded, but it's the car in Honolulu Blue. When Paul got it it came with the remnants of the paint pail of the earlier color.

      Paul keep the car for a while and was asked by Ford to swap it for a rare Lincoln K for the museum. I'm not sure what Paul got out of it, but the car ended up in Boone, Iowa where it's owned by a family member. Last I heard they were asking $850K for it. I'm assuming they still have it. They repainted it with what was leftover in the pail Paul gave them. The last time I saw Paul he gave me the originals of these pictures to copy.



      Dave's on his way here. Everything has been removed except the speedo cable. It gets disconnected as the trans comes out. He's going to have to set the rear end on tires and set the front on jack stands. If we leave it on the lift the weight loss of the engine will make the body unstable.

      Last edited by barry2952; 11-14-2015 at 02:14 PM.

    18. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-14-2015 02:38 PM #43
      If you have many hours to peruse a 1:12 scale model of a Mark II being built please visit the AACA Forum http://forums.aaca.org/topic/145354-...del-scale-112/ to see precisely what makes a Mark II tick. Roger Zimmerman's skills are at the zenith of model making. This is all made of sheet and tube and solid brass and copper.



      http://forums.aaca.org/topic/145354-...del-scale-112/

    19. Senior Member
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      11-14-2015 02:57 PM #44
      Wow. What interesting history. Thanks once again for sharing, Barry.

    20. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-14-2015 06:24 PM #45
      As soon as Dave lifted the motor I spotted a problem. The car has the incorrect motor mounts so someone oblonged the holes with a cutting torch. the engine could easily shift 1" from side to side.



      It only took us about 10 minutes to get it out.



      This trans has the longest tail shaft I've ever seen. It's designed that way to shorten the two piece drive shaft.



      Now this is hack work. You can see the original radius towards the inside on both sides. Even with the correct mounts that will have to be restored.



      Plenty of room for a V-12.



      This is a tubular element of the frame. On this side of the car it's blocked at both ends with a hose nipple welded it. This is the vacuum reserve for the power brakes.



      There areas that were never painted because the engine was in the way. You can see this from above, but you couldn't get to it to work on it. Everything within line of site will be as new. Not perfect, as new.



      This car was one step away from a fire. The high-power consuming things like headlights are on circuit breakers so open wires could repeatedly spark if they came in contact with each other or ground. Look how close the ground wire is to the hot conductor where they come out of the cord. This kind of deterioration is evident at all the termination points. If it's like that in the middle of the harness a reproduction harness will be most cost effective.



      The next step is to a leak-down test on the engine. Each cylinder will be brought to TDC with the valves close and charged with air. If everything checked out the engine gets stripped of its remain paint and the rebuild begins.

      The heating system has two heater cores. They are covered in overspray and are very visible. The heater cores on these cars are a terrible design. If they leak they fill the foot wells with stinky anti-freeze. Since this is Ford's very first car with foot wells they probably didn't have a lot of experience. All prior Ford products had X frames. This is their first ladder frame. I remember having to take the hood and hinges off my car to service mine, but I'm trying to avoid that here. I can't imagine doing all this work and not having the cores flushed and pressure-tested. I'll use the ceramic engine treatment I used on the Steyer to coat everything after it's all back together. It seems to work as the Steyr is holding water.

      41 hours.
      Last edited by barry2952; 11-14-2015 at 06:35 PM.

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      11-14-2015 09:41 PM #46


      We just sent a friend's MkII to a bodyshop in town to get the panel alignments nailed down and then painted. I think the plan is to get it back and the engine & interior back in inside the next 3-4 months. It's been a 5-6 year build so far.
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    22. Member GRN6IX's Avatar
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      11-15-2015 08:19 AM #47
      Loving the history in this thread. Thanks for sharing Barry!

    23. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-15-2015 09:45 AM #48
      Here's some more history for you. A few winters ago the head of Lincoln Design requested that I bring my car down to the studio for the winter so that his designers could get some inspiration for the new Continental, which was just in clay at that time. All the designers told me hoe much they liked my "Lincoln". That made my head explode so I offered to educate his staff. I was pretty nervous to stand in front of 30 20-something professionals and give them a history lesson. I did a PP presentation and they loved it. Made some good friends that day.




































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      11-15-2015 11:04 AM #49
      ^ That is an amazing history. Thanks for sharing.

      And the engineer in me is digging the brake boost reservoir.

    25. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-16-2015 06:33 PM #50
      The overspray was going to make an engine compartment rehab nearly impossible to do nicely.



      So, the front fenders came off with 6 bolts each.



      This gave us access to some of the dirtier areas of the frame.



      The black rectangles are the heater cores. If they leak the floor inside will get very wet.



      The firewall below the horizontal line will be chemically stripped and primed. The frame will be degreased and sprayed black.



      They painted the car with all the chrome in place.



      48 hours in.


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