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    1. Member
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      11-26-2015 10:40 AM #76
      Looking great as always, Barry, thanks for sharing these updates.

      I've seen that same problem with failed seam sealer, it will actually trap moisture and promote rust when it dries up and fails. The good news is that the modern formulations shouldn't do that, so get a tube of 3M product from a body shop and the owner should be able to rest easy for many decades. I've seen a lot of folks put the primer-sealer down first, and then the seam sealer, and then the paint on top of that - I'm not sure if that's the right way, but some folks seem to think so. The seam sealer seems to bite OK on the primer-sealer.
      Quote Originally Posted by sosumi on the B6 S4 V8
      It sounds like a giant shotgun and then like a bunch of ground up Yugo's in a cement mixer followed by weeks of silence interspersed by wails from the owner.

    2. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-26-2015 11:06 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by ArmenB View Post
      Looking great as always, Barry, thanks for sharing these updates.

      I've seen that same problem with failed seam sealer, it will actually trap moisture and promote rust when it dries up and fails. The good news is that the modern formulations shouldn't do that, so get a tube of 3M product from a body shop and the owner should be able to rest easy for many decades. I've seen a lot of folks put the primer-sealer down first, and then the seam sealer, and then the paint on top of that - I'm not sure if that's the right way, but some folks seem to think so. The seam sealer seems to bite OK on the primer-sealer.
      I would think the seam sealer should go on before primer, but I think seam sealer is more of a problem than a help in many cases where it's misapplied.

      In my 40 years in the lighting business the first thing I train my employees about is about water infiltration. It's nearly unpreventable so the best thing you can do is give it someplace to go. Water is a tiny molecule that will find it's way directly or by wicking into the worst spots. A few strategically place holes can save a lot of work down the line.

    3. Member Datic's Avatar
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      11-26-2015 11:58 AM #78
      Boy, I've heard the phrase "rattle can resto" before, but this elevates it to somewhere I never expected!

      I have a question Barry. You mention the cars have a Treadle Vac booster/MC. I recently acquired a(nother) project car that has one that needs a total rebuild. In my research I have come across multiple horror stories if them completely failing, sometimes with bad results for the car. Do you have any experiences with them?

      Dave

    4. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-26-2015 12:22 PM #79
      There were two types of Treadle-Vacs used on the Mark II. Since mine is an early car it has the sleeve-type unit and that later cars had the poppet style. There's not much to the sleeve-type and they typically don't just fail they just get less effective over time. They also have a downside of causing a massive vacuum leak when applied causing the engine to stumble at low idle. If I'm at a light I just put it in neutral and take my foot off the brake.

      The poppet-style installed on later cars is a much more positive type of braking, but many found them pretty "grabby" as they can tend to lock up the brakes. Unless a poppet valve is stuck there's not much to fix. The thing that can be a problem is the master cylinder. If the seal on the cylinder leaks brake fluid can escape through the booster and end up peeling the paint off your firewall.

      The master cylinder on this car does not have a typical plunger sealed against a cylinder wall. It has a simpler system. There's a reservoir of fluid that a cylinder is push into. The fluid that the cylinder displaces is pushed out of the master cylinder to the brake cylinders so there is no cylinder wall for the seal to wear against. The only seals are on the moving cylinder. The Mark II got an added feature that saved the firewall. It has a tiny tube that takes any fluid that gets past the first seal and routes it back to the reserve.


    5. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-26-2015 01:29 PM #80
      Incredibly, this is why someone went to all that trouble to hack the frame. Plumb bobs hanging from each mount reflect that the splay outward about 5/8". It appears that the holes in the mount just need to be elongated slightly allowing the side metal to sit flat and straighten out the stud. Hackery at it's best.



      With the exhaust pipe out of the way I can show you the size of the vacuum reserve space. The other side is capped at both ends as a reserve tank to the vacuum brake assist, only. It has a check valve that charges the reserve and it closes when engine vacuum is low or is lost in an engine stall. It's good for 2 stabs at the brakes.



      Dave left me a pile of parts to blast. I'll wire wheel the ball joints.



      Before and after.



      About an hour and a half of blasting.


    6. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-27-2015 12:48 PM #81
      I got the equipment all set up for the welder.



      He tested my MIG welder and hated it. After he adjusted it properly it fed wire smoothly. He asked for a piece of the material I made the fillers from to set the wire feed and heat. I need to take an adult ed-welding class to build up my confidence.



      He made it look so damn easy.

      http://vid244.photobucket.com/albums...ps9kldh5bi.mp4

      Grind and paint and done.


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      11-27-2015 05:06 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Pulled off the transmission pan and found the valve body clean.



      When Dave pulled the filter it was covered with little globs of what feels like silicone sealant. Can anyone identify this and is it a problem?

      Found no disc material and only a fine metallic residue in the bottom of the pan.

      That looks to me like RTV. It can be a problem, do you know what the oil pressure looked like before you took the motor apart? If it's in the pan it very well may have been sucked up by the oil pick up, which means it may have made its way into the oil passages. Do you know where the RTV was used? I would hunt around to see if you can find it. I have seen failures on old air cooled VW's and Porsche's due to the liberal use of silicone. Most of the time it clogs the pump and causes oil pressure problems.
      I drive a car.

    8. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-27-2015 05:18 PM #83
      There's no sign of RTV anywhere we can see. I thought it might be 0-ring material, but dave says they're typically black. The filter seems to have done a good job of catching it, but who knows what's going on inside.

      Jim is coming by next week, we'll address that concern. It does seem that checking further is the thing to do, but I'll let Jim decide.

    9. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-29-2015 11:13 AM #84
      The repaired motor mounts turned out pretty good. They will now keep the engine in proper orientation to the rest of the drive line.



      You can see how the motor mount got bent and distorted the mount pad. Simple fix.



      The suspension was rebuilt some time in its past, but because it all wasn't replaced the new parts wore badly. The weak links cause the rest to the parts to carry more stress.



      The pile of sand-blasted parts continues to grow. Once everything is done the parts will be separated into powder-coat, paint and plating piles. I've learned that parts that have a critical fit get painted and powder-coating is 4 times as thick.


    10. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      11-29-2015 02:12 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      There's no sign of RTV anywhere we can see. I thought it might be 0-ring material, but dave says they're typically black. The filter seems to have done a good job of catching it, but who knows what's going on inside.

      Jim is coming by next week, we'll address that concern. It does seem that checking further is the thing to do, but I'll let Jim decide.
      It depends on how much use the transmission sees. I had a Borg Warner M-35 once, whose filter looked similar to Jim's because of the liberal use of silicone when it was last serviced (it had no gasket in place, unlike yours). That transmission didn't last long with daily use, even after cleaning it all out.
      However, I do believe they currently make a silicone suitable for transmission pan use, ie. it won't harm the internals, supposedly.
      Lots of VW stuff|Rare Scirocco parts!
      The family: '55 Ford 351C, '70 TR6 262Olds, '80 Rabbit AAZ, '84 C30 350, '88 Scirocco 9A, '97 Hardbody KA24E, '01 TJ 150AMC.
      Quote Originally Posted by Crimping Is Easy View Post
      You're always better off with a Citroën.™

    11. Member EuroAtomic's Avatar
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      11-29-2015 02:25 PM #86
      I save your threads on my iPad and read them on my long cross-country flights. Thank you so much for posting this! I feel that you should make this into a book
      Amazing dedication and workmanship!

    12. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-30-2015 10:07 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by EuroAtomic View Post
      I save your threads on my iPad and read them on my long cross-country flights. Thank you so much for posting this! I feel that you should make this into a book
      Amazing dedication and workmanship!


      Jim and his lovely wife paid a visit today. He was a little taken aback by how much has been taken off the car, but was pleased with the progress and really liked the front part of the frame and body undercarriage. He wants Dave to complete the chassis clean-up so the rest of the mechanical bits had to go. The rear shocks, rear axle leaf springs and gas tank were quickly removed.

      First though, Dave removed the rear cover on the differential and found the gears to be in great shape. I sprayed about a quart of mineral spirits on the gears as I rotated them and inspected for wear or broken teeth. There was no trace of metal shavings in the bottom of the pig. It looks like a thorough cleaning, new seals and gaskets and it should be trouble-free. The axle bearings are sealed units and are in great shape. I've ordered new axle seals and a pinion seal.



      The rear springs will come apart for blasting, powder-coating and my UMHW slippery tape treatment. The original liners have worn through leaving the leaves to squeak on each other.



      With the gas tank and rear axle out of the way there's clear access to the rest of the underside of the car. It will get a judicious bath of mineral spirits followed by a vigorous wipedown with a white sock over a rubber-gloved hand, a Dave trick that I just learned. When the old sock gets too crud laden, just pull on another. It give you a degree of control you don't get just using a rag. This area is about the dirtiest as the pinion seal had been leaking and flinging 90 weight for years, but all that lubricant kept everything pristine underneath.

      One more big mess and then it will be like working on a new car.



      The gas tank looks like it may be a placement as it looks pretty new, inside and out, for a 60 year old gas tank. The sending unit was badly installed and leaked every time the car was filled up. My Mark II had the same problem. The originals screws were really short and often got replaced with screws that bottomed out in the holes and didn't compress the washer. We need to take it out to test it as that was one of the problems on the original list. That list has grown exponentially.



      Jim has decided to follow our advice and is allowing us to start fresh with new or rebuilt suspension parts. There would be too many weak links if we used the old parts. I sent him a list of about $3,000 in additional parts and his heart fluttered, but we didn't lose him. Some of the parts seemed expensive, but not so much when you factored in restoration time of the old parts.

      When I left the only mechanical part left on the car was the parking brake cable system and that was about to go.

      My projects always seem to go this way. It's never intentional, but it must seem so. Since I only do this for friends and they keep me as a friends when I'm done I guess it works out OK.
      Last edited by barry2952; 11-30-2015 at 10:10 PM.

    13. Member VR6ix's Avatar
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      11-30-2015 10:40 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      My projects always seem to go this way. It's never intentional, but it must seem so. Since I only do this for friends and they keep me as a friends when I'm done I guess it works out OK.
      Awesome, and as always thanks for sharing It's always better to dig too deep and save the project, than dig too deep and find it's not worth the effort. I tend to do the same, if they ever get completed

      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      The rear springs will come apart for blasting, powder-coating and my UMHW slippery tape treatment. The original liners have worn through leaving the leaves to squeak on each other.
      Ahhhh, your secret is out!!! But I think you slipped a key as it's "UHMW" for Ultra-High Molecular Weight (polyethylene), which compares very well against more expensive PFTE/Teflon for this kind of application. Having recently acquired an older vehicle with leaf springs and after pulling-out one of the worn factory plastic pads on post-purchase inspection, my first thought was Barry's Magic Slippy Tape™. So, do tell... what thickness do you usually use? And how much of the leaf spring gets covered?
      · ·we're only gonna die for our own arrogance that's why we might as well take our time...
      · · /
      · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to Ø

    14. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      11-30-2015 10:53 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by VR6ix View Post
      Awesome, and as always thanks for sharing It's always better to dig too deep and save the project, than dig too deep and find it's not worth the effort. I tend to do the same, if they ever get completed



      Ahhhh, your secret is out!!! But I think you slipped a key as it's "UHMW" for Ultra-High Molecular Weight (polyethylene), which compares very well against more expensive PFTE/Teflon for this kind of application. Having recently acquired an older vehicle with leaf springs and after pulling-out one of the worn factory plastic pads on post-purchase inspection, my first thought was Barry's Magic Slippy Tape™. So, do tell... what thickness do you usually use? And how much of the leaf spring gets covered?
      12 mil, I think. I do the whole underside of each leaf. It's a better glide surface than the plastic strips. All the cars I've done are still super quiet.

      I do the whole leaf, except the little hole in the center. You cannot put a spring bolt through that stuff.
      Last edited by barry2952; 11-30-2015 at 10:57 PM.

    15. Member VR6ix's Avatar
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      11-30-2015 11:16 PM #90
      Fantastic, thank you keep us updated on your projects!
      · ·we're only gonna die for our own arrogance that's why we might as well take our time...
      · · /
      · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to Ø

    16. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-01-2015 09:38 AM #91
      Today's task.


    17. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-01-2015 08:54 PM #92
      The left spring stands 3/8" taller than the right. After bouncing on both the springs dropped another 1/8" and stuck.

      Thinking out loud:

      There are 4 liners between the 4 longest springs. These seem to be made of a fiber board that has deteriorated and cracked. It's about .090. The 4 shorter springs are metal to metal. My plan is to blast the leaves to white metal and have them powder-coated. Paint is one mil while powder-coat is 4 mils, so each leaf would be .006 thicker than normal. 8 leaves would be .048. Each leaf would get a tape layer that's .012, so that's 7 times .012 or .084. Add .048 and .084 and the total of extra powder-coat covering and a slippery tape layer between each is .132. Leaving the 4 .090 separators out would make a stack height difference of .360 less .132 or a difference of .228" or less than a quarter of an inch. Since the stack height doesn't affect ride height with the axle mounted on top of the longest spring have I missed any reason to duplicate the thickness of the .090 liners?

      Last edited by barry2952; 12-01-2015 at 08:58 PM.

    18. Member
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      12-01-2015 10:13 PM #93
      On your math I think you're slightly overstating the thickness of the powdercoated leaves because only the inner sides would add thickness to the stack - so it wouldn't be 8 leaves/16 surfaces, but instead 14 leaf surfaces, right? Either way I don't think it matters.

      I don't see any reason that replicating the liners would be needed. I'd be shocked if the difference in stack height was detectable in the finished product.
      Quote Originally Posted by sosumi on the B6 S4 V8
      It sounds like a giant shotgun and then like a bunch of ground up Yugo's in a cement mixer followed by weeks of silence interspersed by wails from the owner.

    19. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 11:08 AM #94
      Cool.

      Dave discovered why the spring stacks were different heights.



      All of the smaller springs had a good arc and match each other nearly perfectly. However, one of the main springs is significantly more squat than the other.

      There's about an inch and a half difference in height.



      Back in 2002, when I got my Mark II it was dragging its tail and it made a cacophony of creaks and groans going down the road. I was still running my business full-time so I took it to a local spring shop. They found my liners broken and missing and apparently they just wire brushed the rust, reassembled and painted the assembly. Needless to say it started making noise all over again.

      However, they were able to recurve the main spring on mine, but I wasn't there so I don't know how they did it. 13 years later and the car still rides at the right height. What did they do? Heat? Brute force?

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      12-02-2015 11:26 AM #95
      I'm loving following this, thank you.

      I also need to take a welding class - I think I'm proficient, until I see someone else set the welder actually correctly, or when I run into a issue that I don't have the knowledge to work around or through properly.

      The MkII that we sent to a local body shop is coming along well, I'm getting regular updates via text which is fun. It is hopefully on schedule to be returned by the end of December.

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    21. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 11:30 AM #96
      You should direct them to the Mark II build book I posted. It has a listing for all the factory specified door and fender gaps.

    22. Moderator the brit's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 12:16 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      You should direct them to the Mark II build book I posted. It has a listing for all the factory specified door and fender gaps.
      Trust me, I sent it over the moment you posted it I actually got a text from my father-in-law saying that several pages were missing - I think he's coming back to me with the specific page numbers.
      | œ Orchid Euro Importation œ |

      Currently driving or working on too many cars...
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      | '82 Caddy 1.9D | '85 VW LT Car Transporter | Mk2 Jetta Limo | '90 Jetta 8V | '96 VW LT35D | '03 SpintLT35 | '02 GTI 337 | '03 GTI 20v |
      | '09 Aprilia RS125 | '81 Kawasaki AR80 | '59 NSU Quickly | '64 Honda Cub C65 + '65 C105 | Trek Emonda SLR9 | Trek Crockett 9 |

    23. Member arozanski's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 12:21 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      The left spring stands 3/8" taller than the right. After bouncing on both the springs dropped another 1/8" and stuck.

      Thinking out loud:

      There are 4 liners between the 4 longest springs. These seem to be made of a fiber board that has deteriorated and cracked. It's about .090. The 4 shorter springs are metal to metal. My plan is to blast the leaves to white metal and have them powder-coated. Paint is one mil while powder-coat is 4 mils, so each leaf would be .006 thicker than normal. 8 leaves would be .048. Each leaf would get a tape layer that's .012, so that's 7 times .012 or .084. Add .048 and .084 and the total of extra powder-coat covering and a slippery tape layer between each is .132. Leaving the 4 .090 separators out would make a stack height difference of .360 less .132 or a difference of .228" or less than a quarter of an inch. Since the stack height doesn't affect ride height with the axle mounted on top of the longest spring have I missed any reason to duplicate the thickness of the .090 liners?
      I know you have more discussion of this after this post, but I remember reading (in my old Stockel books) that some vehicles had a higher ride height on the left to accommodate driver weight. Is this a possibility?
      2002 Harley Fat Boy, 2004 Yukon XL Denali, 1993 F-250

    24. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 12:21 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by the brit View Post
      Trust me, I sent it over the moment you posted it I actually got a text from my father-in-law saying that several pages were missing - I think he's coming back to me with the specific page numbers.
      That was a lot to get posted. He can thank Jim, the owner of this car, for handing it over to me. Someone handed it to him at a car show at Greenfield Village.

    25. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      12-02-2015 12:26 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by arozanski View Post
      I know you have more discussion of this after this post, but I remember reading (in my old Stockel books) that some vehicles had a higher ride height on the left to accommodate driver weight. Is this a possibility?
      The springs are stamped with the same part number. There are more numbers stamped into the spring, but those numbers are stamped into the smallest spring, not the long one.

      You've piqued my curiosity. Although, I can't imagine a 200 pound driver would make that much of a difference for a car that's sprung for 5,000 pounds.

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