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    1. Member SeatIbiza1.8T's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 04:28 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.
      I won't waste my time, you have obviously made up your mind on your stance, which is quite wrong IMHO, but whatever makes you happy...

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      If you were a smart kid who made good grades in school, received a useful education and had your employer chased out of your country, or a small shop keeper ruined because you can't import inventory or the government won't let your customers have access to their own funds, you don't deserve your fate just because some malicious people within that country are callous to the ruin they've caused.

      These people aren't "all in it together". Maduro doesn't have a shop that needs inventory and customers and doesn't depend on a functioning petroleum industry for a paycheck. When things go this way in a country, people prove they aren't all in it together by fleeing.

      I wouldn't even say that the people who acquiesced to or have survived the Chavez/Maduro revolution are deserving of their fate. People can make poor choices yet still not deserve what they get. Collective guilt isn't compatible with individual accountability; in a better world it's the individuals in the party who would answer for their acts.
      Thanks for all the comments Zuk.


      Basically, the people who originally voted for Chavez, which were classes C,D and E, are currently the worse off, they are literally starving, scavenging food from trashbags. It's unbelievable it's gotten this bad.

      Classes A and B pretty much had their kids leave the country (huuuuge brain drain), parents have mostly stayed behind, their properties are currently worthless and everyone is worse off, it's been 20 years of productivity lost.

      Off course Chavistas and the Bolibourgeois are incredibly wealthy, I'm talking in the hundreds of millions, and a handful of billionaires that have ransacked the country.


      Just as an example of prepared person who fled: I was a lawyer in a top law firm in Caracas and was doing quite just fine, but the lack of safety drove me away. I left for Spain, got an MBA and currently run a small company I started with a partner 5 years ago. I have no intention of going back permanently in the near future as I do not want to risk my daughter's or wife's life, even if Maduro is ousted, it will be a tough recovery, a lot of crazy ass people and a lot of people not willing to work waiting for government handouts (20 years of Chavismo caused this).

      I'm proud of my countrymen for putting up a fight and I hope Venezuela is freed from this CUBAN led dictatorship. And again, I hope none of you have to go through this, not even Reisner.


      ----------------------------------

      Car related:

      The demand for vehicles was there, what killed all factories was the controlled exchange rate, the govt kept one exchange rate for Govt and Govt friends and another for everyone else. So basically a Chevy Cruze would end up costing 30,000$+ and Chevy may even incur in losses as it had to import certain parts and the Govt wouldn't pay the $$ back...

    2. Member snsr's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 04:47 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.
      Congratulations! You've made the most oblivious and myopic comment of the day.
      Last edited by snsr; 04-22-2017 at 04:51 PM.

    3. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 05:56 PM #78
      Venezuela's predicament shows all too well just how corruption can destroy a population.
      Many in the US like to talk about "draining the swap" to help cut taxes.
      Yes, there is always going to be some corruption whenever there are humans and money involved.
      But US political corruption is amateur at best compared to much of the rest of the world.
      Checks and balances.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    4. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 06:17 PM #79
      Politics.

      I want to see actual pictures of the plant.
      Lots of VW stuff|Rare Scirocco parts!
      The family: '55 Ford 351C, '70 TR6 262Olds, '80 Rabbit AAZ, '84 C30 350, '88 Scirocco 9A, '97 Hardbody KA24E, '01 TJ 150AMC.
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      You're always better off with a Citroën.™

    5. Member snsr's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 06:24 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Venezuela's predicament shows all too well just how corruption can destroy a population.
      Many in the US like to talk about "draining the swap" to help cut taxes.
      Yes, there is always going to be some corruption whenever there are humans and money involved.
      But US political corruption is amateur at best compared to much of the rest of the world.
      Checks and balances.
      They're definitely amateurs, but so far the current administration does seem to exist solely to enrich itself.

      Quote Originally Posted by Iroczgirl View Post
      Politics.

      I want to see actual pictures of the plant.
      Same.

    6. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      04-22-2017 06:41 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by snsr View Post
      They're definitely amateurs, but so far the current administration does seem to exist solely to enrich itself.
      .
      Let's not get specific.
      I'm talking in general- from local all the way up to feds.
      We have corruption, but it's nowhere near as blatant unabashed unapologetic in your face as many places around the world.
      And when brought to light, it actually has consequences other than just the story breaking reporters going missing.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    7. 04-22-2017 07:15 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      Just as an example of prepared person who fled: I was a lawyer in a top law firm in Caracas and was doing quite just fine, but the lack of safety drove me away. I left for Spain, got an MBA and currently run a small company I started with a partner 5 years ago.
      That's a terrible story; glad you landed on your feet.

      A lot of families in the US and Canada are here because their ancestors had an exit plan in the last century when the world went mad, but it isn't a normal thing for people who've been raised in the US. Building a life with one eye on when to leave sounds like an enormous burden.

      Questions if you don't mind them:

      Which other destinations had you considered before you left?
      Are you eligible for admission to the spanish bar without returning to school?
      Is there an accent difference that readily identifies you as not born in Spain?
      Are you part of a socially cohesive group of venezuelan emigres?
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    8. Member SeatIbiza1.8T's Avatar
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      04-23-2017 06:16 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      That's a terrible story; glad you landed on your feet.

      A lot of families in the US and Canada are here because their ancestors had an exit plan in the last century when the world went mad, but it isn't a normal thing for people who've been raised in the US. Building a life with one eye on when to leave sounds like an enormous burden.
      It's def. a huge burden, not long ago a Venezuelan Govt backed party seemed to be rising in the polls here in Spain, and I told my wife right away, if they win majority we leave Spain. Thankfully it didn't happen, but for sure my life will never be the same.

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Which other destinations had you considered before you left?
      I wanted to get my MBA in the US and then return to Venezuela, however, my wife has a Spanish passport (dual nationality), so I thought we would come here for a few years, study, get the Spanish nationality and return. That obviously didn't happen.

      It's crazy to think my wife's parents moved from a very ****ed up Spain to a vibrant Venezuela, started from scratch, did well for themselves, and now both their kids fled a very ****ed up Venezuela to start from scratch in Spain.

      As for my family, we are Venezuelan through and through, family has been in the country for quite a few centuries, Portuguese and Spanish immigrants since 1700's I believe (could be wrong). I have four other siblings, my eldest brother lives in Michigan, my other brother lives in Caracas by choice, and my sisters one in Boston and the other in Sillicon Valley. We are all over the place, but mostly in the US obviously, we are very very fortunate.


      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Are you eligible for admission to the spanish bar without returning to school?
      I'd have to take many courses, no BAR-only, pretty much 3-4 years of school and then an admission exam. Frankly I had already worked 7 years in law and was determined not to start again as a temp, too much time, too frustrating.

      I've always worked in family businesses and dreamed of starting my own company. So I went ahead and took the plunge, it's been a lot of work, but very rewarding.

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Is there an accent difference that readily identifies you as not born in Spain?
      For sure, it's quite clear I'm not identified as Spanish, much less Catalan, unfortunately a some people here think being Latin American equals low education and low funds, this both in business and day to day has been a bit of a pain to put up with.

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Are you part of a socially cohesive group of venezuelan emigres?
      To be honest our first three years in Barcelona we only had international friends, they all left after our studies and it got lonely for awhile, pretty hellish actually, people in Catalunya are not particularly friendly, nor open to new friends. Fortunately by our fourth year we moved to the suburbs, and there is a Highly regarded Hospital nearby and they have hired a large amount of very well prepared Venezuelan doctors, so nowadays we have a great group of friends, mostly Venezuelan doctors.

      We are quite happy now, and have no intention of leaving, just bought our first place here and had a daughter born 18 months ago. Crazy to think she will be Spanish/Catalan and may not get to go to Venezuela for many, many years.

    9. 04-23-2017 06:48 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post



      To be honest our first three years in Barcelona we only had international friends, they all left after our studies and it got lonely for awhile, pretty hellish actually, people in Catalunya are not particularly friendly, nor open to new friends..
      Isn't it true that the Catalunya region have tried repeatedly in the past to separate and create their own nation?

      They don't consider themselves Spaniards at all from what I know of the history and people there.

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      04-23-2017 08:37 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      It's def. a huge burden, not long ago a Venezuelan Govt backed party seemed to be rising in the polls here in Spain, and I told my wife right away, if they win majority we leave Spain. Thankfully it didn't happen, but for sure my life will never be the same.
      Wow. That's one heck of a story. I'm glad you're happy now and I wish you continued success!


      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      We are quite happy now, and have no intention of leaving, just bought our first place here and had a daughter born 18 months ago. Crazy to think she will be Spanish/Catalan and may not get to go to Venezuela for many, many years.
      Congratulations, dad!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    11. Member SeatIbiza1.8T's Avatar
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      04-24-2017 09:52 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Wow. That's one heck of a story. I'm glad you're happy now and I wish you continued success!




      Congratulations, dad!

      Thanks!!!

    12. Senior Member
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      04-24-2017 10:10 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      Thanks!!!
      De nada.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    13. Senior Member
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      04-24-2017 10:48 AM #88
      SeatIbiza,

      Is your name Tanasi by chance? I have a good colleague who is Venezuelan. Moved to Michigan years ago and rants about how f'd up the country is due to the recent spat of 'leadership'.

      Being forced/pressured to leave one's country sucks for sure.

      I've been reading recently that the 'takeover' started with the union doing a sit-in of sorts while the plant was idled due to the economic debacle. Evidently when GM asked for local police/government help to end the sit-in, the police basically did the opposite.

      It's hard for Venezuelans to endure this growing catastrophe, but it's not like just building cars or this or that widget in the midst of an economic meltdown will somehow magically solve things. Global industries like automotive are definitely not socialistic and so they don't mix well when regional governments try to do things that undermine their operating market... and supply chain... and financing... and on and on.

      It's unfortunate that few saw the collapse of oil prices due to supply glut, but when prices were good... the country's leadership did their people no good by swinging too far to the opposite extreme vs the likely prior leadership that were likely swinging for the other spectrum. Balance. It's a difficult concept for most to grasp evidently.

    14. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      04-24-2017 11:01 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post

      It's unfortunate that few saw the collapse of oil prices due to supply glut, but when prices were good... the country's leadership did their people no good by swinging too far to the opposite extreme vs the likely prior leadership that were likely swinging for the other spectrum. Balance. It's a difficult concept for most to grasp evidently.
      I worked for an oil major up until 2010 that had significant assets in Venezuela. While Chavez was still large and in charge he would arbitrarily pull the Darth Vader scheme and "change the terms of the deal" with all of the majors operating down there. The last time he did it in 2009 (I believe?), my company simply said, "F' it. Pull it out of the ground your own damn selves.". We offered the local intellectual talent jobs and homes here in the States and they fled the looming disaster. Chavez was firing and jailing them all anyway and replacing them with his cronies. These were non-technical loyalists taking geological and engineering jobs under the assumption that they'd still have more technical underlings to do the actual work. Their oil productivity has fallen every year since and they even had to purchase crude from the Russians in order to cover their own contracts. They could get away with it while prices remained high by juggling the books, but since 2014, efficiency has become the name of the game and Venezuela ain't got none of that.

      Chavez wasn't any better or smarter than Maduro other than having the good sense to die before the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

      I recall way back around that time Chavez was going to give away heating oil to po' people here in the US and some jackass on this forum even commented (paraphrasing), "Maybe now people will realize he's a great guy!". I couldn't even reply. I was just ...
      Last edited by Seabird; 04-24-2017 at 11:05 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by John Steinbeck
      Sectional football games have the glory and the despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it is an army with banners.

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      04-24-2017 11:09 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by dr whos it View Post
      Lets not forget that the USA aided and sponsored a military coup in the country back in the 50s, and constantly meddled in the country since the 40s until present. Usually when the US interferes things only get much worse in the end.
      Kind of like Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, Paraguay, Argentina, Grenada, Fiji, etc.

      To quote the late Guru of Gangstarr fame: And this is how the story goes.

    16. Member
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      04-24-2017 12:59 PM #91
      Lovely:

      The uniformed men who shot Mr. Moreno were not government security forces, witnesses say. Rather, they were members of armed bands who have become key enforcers for President Nicolás Maduro as he attempts to crush a growing protest movement against his rule.

      The groups, called collectives or colectivos in Spanish, originated as pro-government community organizations that have long been a part of the landscape of leftist Venezuelan politics. Civilians with police training, colectivo members are armed by the government, say experts who have studied them.

      Colectivos control vast territory across Venezuela, financed in some cases by extortion, black-market food and parts of the drug trade as the government turns a blind eye in exchange for loyalty.

      Now they appear to be playing a key role in repressing dissent.
      Sounds like 1980s Central America here (only exception being that it's the left that's involved here, as opposed to the right).

    17. 04-24-2017 01:09 PM #92
      The groups, called collectives or colectivos in Spanish, originated as pro-government community organizations that have long been a part of the landscape of leftist Venezuelan politics.
      Those pro-government community organizers will get you every time.
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    18. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      04-24-2017 01:56 PM #93
      Well it just keeps getting better and better. Experts warn that military grade hardware will proliferate beyond Venezuela's borders once they start handing guns out to the militias. Looks like the so-called Peace Dividend is just about to come to a close in South America.

      http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nati...146395469.html
      Quote Originally Posted by John Steinbeck
      Sectional football games have the glory and the despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it is an army with banners.

    19. Member TheDeckMan's Avatar
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      04-24-2017 02:10 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I worked for an oil major up until 2010 that had significant assets in Venezuela. While Chavez was still large and in charge he would arbitrarily pull the Darth Vader scheme and "change the terms of the deal" with all of the majors operating down there. The last time he did it in 2009 (I believe?), my company simply said, "F' it. Pull it out of the ground your own damn selves.". We offered the local intellectual talent jobs and homes here in the States and they fled the looming disaster. Chavez was firing and jailing them all anyway and replacing them with his cronies. These were non-technical loyalists taking geological and engineering jobs under the assumption that they'd still have more technical underlings to do the actual work. Their oil productivity has fallen every year since and they even had to purchase crude from the Russians in order to cover their own contracts. They could get away with it while prices remained high by juggling the books, but since 2014, efficiency has become the name of the game and Venezuela ain't got none of that.

      Chavez wasn't any better or smarter than Maduro other than having the good sense to die before the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

      I recall way back around that time Chavez was going to give away heating oil to po' people here in the US and some jackass on this forum even commented (paraphrasing), "Maybe now people will realize he's a great guy!". I couldn't even reply. I was just ...


      Sounds very much like the looters from Atlas Shrugged.
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      04-24-2017 03:46 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      ... but since 2014, efficiency has become the name of the game and Venezuela ain't got none of that.
      Has the oil industry globally always been so lucrative that efficiency was not so important over most of its age? Or is efficiency just that aggressive today with so many players and sources (deep sea, tar sands, etc.) being utilized?

      I recall way back around that time Chavez was going to give away heating oil to po' people here in the US and some jackass on this forum even commented (paraphrasing), "Maybe now people will realize he's a great guy!". I couldn't even reply. I was just ...
      Get the frack out! I don't believe that!


      Ya know... I just want to know... is there such a thing as a smart autocrat/dictator? You know... one who actually doesn't have to resort to using clueless cronies? You're going to reward loyalty with money/wealth in the end so why not invest it towards capable cronies?

    21. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      04-24-2017 04:26 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      Has the oil industry globally always been so lucrative that efficiency was not so important over most of its age? Or is efficiency just that aggressive today with so many players and sources (deep sea, tar sands, etc.) being utilized?
      All of the above. The Saudis badly underestimated just how well the American hydro-fracking players could operate when they turned the taps on full-bore back in 2014. They thought that they could drive most of the NA operators out of business at $75/bl and regain their lost market share. Then it hit $65... And then $55... IIRC, we bottomed below $45 before the bleeding stopped. By then the Russians and the rest of OPEC were all screaming bloody murder because they were so inefficient, and their national economies were so dependent upon oil rocking along at about $65 or so, they were getting killed.

      Get the frack out! I don't believe that!
      I swear to Andy, its true. It was a weird time back then. Buncha people on this board were raving lunatics about Peak Oil and $4 gas, and Big Evil Oil, etc... Chavez and his hamfisted populist ranting and raving sounds unlikely? LOL! Ironic, no?

      Ya know... I just want to know... is there such a thing as a smart autocrat/dictator? You know... one who actually doesn't have to resort to using clueless cronies? You're going to reward loyalty with money/wealth in the end so why not invest it towards capable cronies?
      I finally came to understand a lot of that populist anti-corporate message a few years ago. The company I worked for then was so badly mismanaged, it is my firm belief that the CEO was running it into the ground of purpose. We were asset rich and by tanking the stock, we would be ripe for a takeover which would net him several million in a sale. Don't mind all the people who lost their jobs because of it. I think that autocrat mentality is the same thing. Selfish greed. Sometimes it wears a suit. Sometimes it wears fatigues and a beret.
      Quote Originally Posted by John Steinbeck
      Sectional football games have the glory and the despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it is an army with banners.

    22. 04-25-2017 08:24 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Yes, this will totally fix the 500% a year rate of inflation! Oh wait, it won't? You mean inflation is projected to hit 1500% in 2017?
      I wanted to purchase several stacks of Bolivares notes to give to friends as Monopoly money/poker chips, but its hard to find anyone selling Bolivares at their market value instead of their "official" value. I was hoping to find fairly pristine notes, that hadn't circulated because they had cost more to print than they were worth. Everything on Ebay is official rate or even overpriced above the official rate, which was something like 100x (Edit: ops, that was a year ago, now its about 500x) the market value of the notes.
      Last edited by Slapoquidik; 04-25-2017 at 08:27 PM.
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